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SaltySeaWolf

Damage Ratio of Body Damage Compared to Headshot Damage

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Hi,
I would like to start a polite constructive discussion about overall weapons damage in PUBG and, specifically, the ratio between headshot/body damage. First of all a few words about me: I've been playing since CB and I'm extremely happy with the game. Having a lot of fun with my friends playing in squad/duo mode on a daily base. I've played all kind of FPS games and I consider myself an average player (not a pro yet not completely clueless).

Let's delve into the topic now. After playing something like 100 matches, I have more and more the impression that there is something wrong with one of the following variables: weapon damage (WD), armour reduction (AR) or headshot damage (HSD). In multiple gunfights, me and my friends died or killed someone in pretty weird circumstances and I decided that was the time to start a discussion and understand better what is actually happening and how can I improve. Therefore, going by steps:

Weapon Damage

After browsing a bit, I found this extremely usefull link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13ZI5GQDbCXl7IlVCVnEA6aZVfC7NFJLBsXPIAGFMNj4/edit. It shows, for each weapon and armour, the relative damage dealt to the player. After having a look at this I understood why it takes SO long to kill a player even with an automatic rifle. Makes perfect sense, lesson learned. YET, I recalled how actually my gunfights experiences do not really match that spreadsheet calculations. I will therefore report one exemplary case to synthesize my experience. Two days ago I was shooting at a guy less than 50 meters away from me. I was crouched and undercover, he was standing and not moving. I fired 4 shots at his chest with an SKS (saw 4 blood sprays) but unfortunately he was still alive (?!). Ok, so I grabbed my scar-L and approached him in 5 seconds or less. As soon as I reached his tree I fired 2 shots at his chest. He didn't die (??) and killed me with one shot of S686 (headshot, of course).
Now I was playing duo and my friend was behind me watching the all scene and he confirmed at least that he saw me hitting my opponent 4 times with the SKS and that I'm not crazy. Hence, my first question for you guys is: Why my opponent didn't die considering that 4 shots of SKS (even with lvl 3 armor) deal 130dmg+? Why didn't he die with two additional scar-L shots at close range in the chest (57.4 dmg after level 3 armour reduction)?
I have more example if anybody is interested (especially about pistols damage).

Armour Reduction and HSD
I agree that headshots should kill you almost always immediately. This conception comes from what happens in reality: you get an automatic rifle bullet into your skull = dead. This is fine by me and I don't complain about the mechanic per se. HOWEVER, if we have to apply realism also to other body parts like, for example, chest, nobody would ever survive three 7.62mm bullets in the chest even if you have adamantium plates shielding you (joke here :) ). No way you can take even more shots! At the moment, the game has clearly a biased behaviour favouring way too much headshots compared to 3-4 solid shots to the chest. Don't get me wrong, doing a headshot is hard and has to be rewarded! Nevertheless, I'm quite skeptical about being able to get a headshot when there is someone constantly tapping your chest (suppressed much?). I'll bring you another example. During another gunfight I was shooting at a guy in the back pretty close to me (below 100meters). I got him 4 times with m16 before he turned and headshot me. Over. Apart from the fact that it wasn't funny, my question is: shouldn't be really hard for someone to turn and get a headshot while running and being fired at? Shouldn't we have s suppression effect implemented into the game?

I would love to receive some constructive feedback from you guys!

Cheers

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The only thing I would add is some flinching when you get hit. I find it a bit ridiculous that you can keep a steady aim through a 8x scope while getting peppered.

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10 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

The only thing I would add is some flinching when you get hit. I find it a bit ridiculous that you can keep a steady aim through a 8x scope while getting peppered.

Exactly. I believe that this would be a necessary addition to the game to reduce the upper-hand granted by high-zooming scope and to decrease headshot chances in close combat. Aiming for the head has to be hard if you are under constant fire. A common reaction would be just firing at the chest instead of calmly aiming at the head while you get shredded.

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22 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

The only thing I would add is some flinching when you get hit. I find it a bit ridiculous that you can keep a steady aim through a 8x scope while getting peppered.

PLEASE NO! Flinch/Aim punch is an awful mechanic in every game it is in. It gives the person who lands the first shot way too large of an advantage. If I'm hit once in the chest while I'm running towards cover but its kinda far away, then I have no good choice other than to turn and fight or hope that they miss. I have pretty decent aim so I should have a fighting chance here. If I am able to turn and shoot that player in the head quickly, I should have a good chance to either push them into their cover or an opportunity to kill them. I'm already at a severe disadvantage by not having cover to work with, so give me an opportunity to win the fight or force them into their cover.

Aim punch/flinch is a crutch for players that have bad aim. It removes a mechanical skill from players that have good aim because if they get hit once from an ambush, they are almost certainly going to lose the fight and not have a chance to return accurate fire.

I have won a lot of fights because I was the better aimer. Many players have caught me off guard but I was able to turn and take them down before they were able to land shots 3 or 4 or whatever. I have also lost plenty of fights because they caught me off guard but they still had good aim.

TL;DR: Please don't add aim punch. It's a crutch for players with bad aim and favors the person who lands the first shot way too heavily while damage already gives them an advantage.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Harry_Whodini said:

PLEASE NO! Flinch/Aim punch is an awful mechanic in every game it is in. It gives the person who lands the first shot way too large of an advantage. If I'm hit once in the chest while I'm running towards cover but its kinda far away, then I have no good choice other than to turn and fight or hope that they miss. I have pretty decent aim so I should have a fighting chance here. If I am able to turn and shoot that player in the head quickly, I should have a good chance to either push them into their cover or an opportunity to kill them. I'm already at a severe disadvantage by not having cover to work with, so give me an opportunity to win the fight or force them into their cover.

Aim punch/flinch is a crutch for players that have bad aim. It removes a mechanical skill from players that have good aim because if they get hit once from an ambush, they are almost certainly going to lose the fight and not have a chance to return accurate fire.

I have won a lot of fights because I was the better aimer. Many players have caught me off guard but I was able to turn and take them down before they were able to land shots 3 or 4 or whatever. I have also lost plenty of fights because they caught me off guard but they still had good aim.

TL;DR: Please don't add aim punch. It's a crutch for players with bad aim and favors the person who lands the first shot way too heavily while damage already gives them an advantage.

Adding flinching would emphasize spotting, movement and cover. Not having flinching only emphasizes the ability to aim quickly and get a headshot.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I think with flinching the game would require using your brain more, which is always a good thing.

 

Edited by tom_gore
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44 minutes ago, SaltySeaWolf said:

Hi,
I would like to start a polite constructive discussion about overall weapons damage in PUBG and, specifically, the ratio between headshot/body damage. First of all a few words about me: I've been playing since CB and I'm extremely happy with the game. Having a lot of fun with my friends playing in squad/duo mode on a daily base. I've played all kind of FPS games and I consider myself an average player (not a pro yet not completely clueless).

Let's delve into the topic now. After playing something like 100 matches, I have more and more the impression that there is something wrong with one of the following variables: weapon damage (WD), armour reduction (AR) or headshot damage (HSD). In multiple gunfights, me and my friends died or killed someone in pretty weird circumstances and I decided that was the time to start a discussion and understand better what is actually happening and how can I improve. Therefore, going by steps:

Weapon Damage

After browsing a bit, I found this extremely usefull link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13ZI5GQDbCXl7IlVCVnEA6aZVfC7NFJLBsXPIAGFMNj4/edit. It shows, for each weapon and armour, the relative damage dealt to the player. After having a look at this I understood why it takes SO long to kill a player even with an automatic rifle. Makes perfect sense, lesson learned. YET, I recalled how actually my gunfights experiences do not really match that spreadsheet calculations. I will therefore report one exemplary case to synthesize my experience. Two days ago I was shooting at a guy less than 50 meters away from me. I was crouched and undercover, he was standing and not moving. I fired 4 shots at his chest with an SKS (saw 4 blood sprays) but unfortunately he was still alive (?!). Ok, so I grabbed my scar-L and approached him in 5 seconds or less. As soon as I reached his tree I fired 2 shots at his chest. He didn't die (??) and killed me with one shot of S686 (headshot, of course).
Now I was playing duo and my friend was behind me watching the all scene and he confirmed at least that he saw me hitting my opponent 4 times with the SKS and that I'm not crazy. Hence, my first question for you guys is: Why my opponent didn't die considering that 4 shots of SKS (even with lvl 3 armor) deal 130dmg+? Why didn't he die with two additional scar-L shots at close range in the chest (57.4 dmg after level 3 armour reduction)?
I have more example if anybody is interested (especially about pistols damage).

Armour Reduction and HSD
I agree that headshots should kill you almost always immediately. This conception comes from what happens in reality: you get an automatic rifle bullet into your skull = dead. This is fine by me and I don't complain about the mechanic per se. HOWEVER, if we have to apply realism also to other body parts like, for example, chest, nobody would ever survive three 7.62mm bullets in the chest even if you have adamantium plates shielding you (joke here :) ). No way you can take even more shots! At the moment, the game has clearly a biased behaviour favouring way too much headshots compared to 3-4 solid shots to the chest. Don't get me wrong, doing a headshot is hard and has to be rewarded! Nevertheless, I'm quite skeptical about being able to get a headshot when there is someone constantly tapping your chest (suppressed much?). I'll bring you another example. During another gunfight I was shooting at a guy in the back pretty close to me (below 100meters). I got him 4 times with m16 before he turned and headshot me. Over. Apart from the fact that it wasn't funny, my question is: shouldn't be really hard for someone to turn and get a headshot while running and being fired at? Shouldn't we have s suppression effect implemented into the game?

I would love to receive some constructive feedback from you guys!

Cheers

There at the end of your post you said

Quote

"Shouldn't it be really hard for someone to turn and get a headshot while running and being fired at?"

The answer is yes, and it already is very difficult. You landed 4 shots on this person while shooting them in the back. You had the better position, you had the drop on them, you should have won the fight. However, the person that did win the fight had better aim than you and a quick enough reaction.

All you had to do was probably land 1 more bullet while he had to locate you and land 2 shots if he had an AR and you were wearing a helmet. It's already very difficult to land a headshot in this situation so adding suppresion/aim punch/flinch etc. will just make it fucking impossible.

Please don't take this post as me insulting your level of skill or anything. I don't mean it that way. I'm just trying to say, don't take away the advantage of mechanical skill in this game by adding mechanics that favor the shooters so heavily. You had already landed a bunch of damage on him and had a massive advantage, you didn't need more of an advantage (suppression) to win the fight.

As for the first part of your post, this honestly just sounds like inconsistent hit registration. That guy absolutely should have died and you got unlucky due to the servers is what it sounds like to me.

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Harry_Whodini said:

TL;DR: Please don't add aim punch. It's a crutch for players with bad aim and favors the person who lands the first shot way too heavily while damage already gives them an advantage.

We are not talking about good/bad aim per se. The point is that the whole idea about headshot damage comes from realism. So either you go all the way through and apply the same principle to other aspects of the game OR you don't do it at all. Otherwise it's a clearly biased choice, and this is bad. Really bad.

Also if somebody shoots you before you do, the logical behaviour is running for cover and THEN fire back. Would you ever stand under fire in a real scenario because you can maybe get an headshot? I don't think so. Moreover, this game is more about positioning then aim (or at least that's my perception). So I don't see any issue into giving the upper-hand to a player ambushing you while you run into an open field.

Anyway I'm more interested into having an opinion about weapon damage rather then headshot/aim punch. EDIT: just saw it. Thanks.

Edited by SaltySeaWolf
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4 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

Adding flinching would emphasize spotting, movement and cover. Not having flinching only emphasizes the ability to aim quickly and get a headshot.

I guess it's a matter of preference, but I think with flinching the game would require using your brain more, which is always a good thing.

 

You can only use your brain so much though. You can't check every single spot that out there when the circle is forcing you to move in. I fully understand wanting this game to be tactical and not an aim fest like H1 and I fully support that. However, players that get caught out by an ambush should still have a chance to win the fight if they have good aim. If you add flinch/aim punch, they will have absolutely no chance.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Harry_Whodini said:

You can only use your brain so much though. You can't check every single spot that out there when the circle is forcing you to move in. I fully understand wanting this game to be tactical and not an aim fest like H1 and I fully support that. However, players that get caught out by an ambush should still have a chance to win the fight if they have good aim. If you add flinch/aim punch, they will have absolutely no chance.

I guess. I'm just sick of the headshot emphasis of shooters in general. Not one military service in the world trains people to go for headshots because they're unrealiable and a body shot has the same result 99% of the time - taking the target out of combat. I've been trained in the army to shoot the center of mass and that habit is really hard to shake when it comes to reflexive shooting.

Edited by tom_gore
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They already had lots of aim punch in early alpha. It was terrible and got lots of negative feedback from the community. They since reduced it by a ton. There is still very small amount of aim punch if you pay attention closely.

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1 minute ago, SaltySeaWolf said:

We are not talking about good/bad aim per se. The point is that the whole idea about headshot damage comes from realism. So either you go all the way through and apply the same principle to other aspects of the game OR you don't do it at all. Otherwise it's a clearly biased choice, and this is bad. Really bad.

Also if somebody shoots you before you do, the logical behaviour is running for cover and THEN fire back. Would you ever stand under fire in a real scenario because you can maybe get an headshot? I don't think so. Moreover, this game is more about positioning then aim. So I don't see any issue into giving the upper-hand to a player ambushing you while you run into an open field.

Anyway I'm more interested into having an opinion about weapon damage rather then headshot/aim punch.

Of course I wouldn't stand out in the open IRL. However, this is a game. Sometimes, in this game, you don't have a choice but to stand and take the fight. They have said that they want to semi realism of this game to be in how the guns shoot and function. It needs to still be a game and still be fun.

The game already favors positioning to a high degree. Like, a massive degree. Positioning will win you a battle 9 times out of 10. However, if you go up against a player with significantly better aim, then they may be able to land a quick headshot on you and at least force you back into your cover while they find their own. With Flinching/Aim Punch you remove that chance completely and positioning will win you a fight 10/10 times even with mediocre aim.

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4 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

I guess. I'm just sick of the headshot emphasis of shooters in general. Not one military service in the world trains people to go for headshots because they're unrealiable and a body shot has the same result 99% of the time - taking the target out of combat. I've been trained in the army to shoot the center of mass and that habit is really hard to shake when it comes to reflexive shooting.

I understand this but it still needs to be a game ja feel? Like, if 1 or 2 bullets in the chest was always a kill, then this game would be unfun to play in my opinion. The game still needs to reward mechanical skill and rewarding headshots is a good way to do that.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Harry_Whodini said:

Of course I wouldn't stand out in the open IRL. However, this is a game. Sometimes, in this game, you don't have a choice but to stand and take the fight. They have said that they want to semi realism of this game to be in how the guns shoot and function. It needs to still be a game and still be fun.

The game already favors positioning to a high degree. Like, a massive degree. Positioning will win you a battle 9 times out of 10. However, if you go up against a player with significantly better aim, then they may be able to land a quick headshot on you and at least force you back into your cover while they find their own. With Flinching/Aim Punch you remove that chance completely and positioning will win you a fight 10/10 times even with mediocre aim.

I understand. I'm actually working hard on my aim. I've played tons of fast-paced shooters and my aim has always been pretty on point. In this game I feel like it's actually really rough and needs some polishing. However, this might be connected to the first point of my discussion and related to faulty hit registration/ghost hits. This whole thing about headshot and aim punch is bugging me. Sometimes is really frustrating to get 1-tapped while you spent so much time carefully positioning and studying your opponent.

Edited by SaltySeaWolf
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Just now, Harry_Whodini said:

I understand this but it still needs to be a game ja feel? Like, if 1 or 2 bullets in the chest was always a kill, then this game would be unfun to play in my opinion. The game still needs to reward mechanical skill and rewarding headshots is a good way to do that.

I agree. Would still want some tuning to the system. At the moment it feels unless you go for headshots you're gonna lose pretty much every firefight.

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2 minutes ago, tom_gore said:

I agree. Would still want some tuning to the system. At the moment it feels unless you go for headshots you're gonna lose pretty much every firefight.

That's the same conclusion I reached yesterday after a dozen of firefights. It's actually more rewarding to aim for the head and hope for a headshot rather than getting 3-4 solid chest shots (and for me it's unfortunately counter-intuitive :( ).

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Also, the devs are doing a full balance pass on weapons, attachments, and the gunplay system soon they said. So things will change.

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1 minute ago, Interrogate said:

Also, the devs are doing a full balance pass on weapons, attachments, and the gunplay system soon they said. So things will change.

That's really good to hear! My only concerns about the game are exactly related to gunplay system/dynamics. The rest is absolutely amazing :)

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, SaltySeaWolf said:

I understand. I'm actually working hard on my aim. I've played tons of fast-paced shooters and my aim has always been pretty on point. In this game I feel like it's actually really rough and needs some polishing. However, this might be connected to the first point of my discussion and related to faulty hit registration/ghost hits. This whole thing about headshot and aim punch is bugging me. Sometimes is really frustrating to get 1-tapped while you spent so much time carefully positioning and studying your opponent.

I understand how you feel. It can definitely be frustrating. For me though, it's good motivation to get better. I mean, if you land 3 or 4 bodyshots on someone and they have the balls to peek and shoot you, good on them. They had almost 0 health and took the peek anyway. You land 1 more bodyshot there you likely win the fight. I've had it happen to me too my dude but it makes me want to just land that one more body shot even more! haha

Edited by Harry_Whodini
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2 minutes ago, Harry_Whodini said:

I understand how you feel. It can definitely be frustrating. For me though, it's good motivation to get better. I mean, if you land 3 or 4 bodyshots on someone and they have the balls to peek and shoot you, good on them. They had almost 0 health and took the peak anyway. You land 1 more bodyshot there you likely win the fight. I've had it happen to me too my dude but it makes me want to just land that one more body shot even more! haha

Ahah! I will definitely try hard to land the last bloody bullet! :D  

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Link doesn't work but if it's the same as this one that has been floating around (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13ZI5GQDbCXl7IlVCVnEA6aZVfC7NFJLBsXPIAGFMNj4/edit#gid=0) then I asked the devs on stream how accurate it was and they replied "not very". The HS multiplier is 2.5X iirc but sometime in April with the next update they will release the stat info as I think there will be another balance pass. 

https://clips.twitch.tv/BlightedAthleticGullThisIsSparta

 

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12 minutes ago, SaltySeaWolf said:

That's the same conclusion I reached yesterday after a dozen of firefights. It's actually more rewarding to aim for the head and hope for a headshot rather than getting 3-4 solid chest shots (and for me it's unfortunately counter-intuitive :( ).

Yeah it's the (forced) "all or nothing" mentality of the firefights that I dislike.

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3 minutes ago, Twirlywoos said:

Link doesn't work but if it's the same as this one that has been floating around (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13ZI5GQDbCXl7IlVCVnEA6aZVfC7NFJLBsXPIAGFMNj4/edit#gid=0) then I asked the devs on stream how accurate it was and they replied "not very". The HS multiplier is 2.5X iirc but sometime in April with the next update they will release the stat info as I think there will be another balance pass. 

https://clips.twitch.tv/BlightedAthleticGullThisIsSparta

 

Oh damn I'm sorry about the link, the dot at the end messed it up and I can't edit anymore my post! Well so I think we have to wait until April to shed some light about weapons damage.

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3 minutes ago, SaltySeaWolf said:

Oh damn I'm sorry about the link, the dot at the end messed it up and I can't edit anymore my post! Well so I think we have to wait until April to shed some light about weapons damage.

You can always try and get some specifics if you want numbers for the current update. They are streaming now

https://www.twitch.tv/smookie___ just tag Smookie and he always replies. :)

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Posted (edited)

Armor values need to be decreased , like BAD . This isn't world of Warcraft with item levels for fucks sake , this is a first person shooter , we shouldn't be having all these arcadey elements in the game . 

 

Some weapons that are ABSOLUTELY USELESS when the opponent has armor :

revolver; takes more than 7 shots in the chest with lvl 1 armor, with an incredibly slow reload and no attachments this weapon is garbage and needs a buff .

crossbow ; you'll never find one and when you do you'll never make a kill unless you get a perfect headshot on a lvl 1 or less helmet

 

p92; incredibly fast but incredibly weak , 1911 is better in every way , there's NO reason to pick up this pistol as it is too weak against anyone in armor .

 

pump action shotgun : five shots to someone's chest while wearing lvl 2 chest rig won't kill them or even down them , also the range is a lot less than an actual shotgun can perform .

After all this has been said (and I'm sure plenty of you agree unless youre just trying to defend broken mechanics due to loving the meta) then I Think we can all agree that either some weapons like those mentioned above need more damage while shooting chest area or the freaking damage mitigation of these ridiculous world of Warcraft armor items need to be reduced .

I don't like playing RPG games when I'm supposed to be playing a first person shooter with hints of realism , make people die faster or make the guns stronger devs please or else this game will devolve into a bunch of meta gaming of getting the best armor and gear crutching  while you lay down and wait for people to reveal themselves (stupid!), also with the current system people will drop the aforementioned crap weapons and always go for the "better weapons" that have no reason to be better besides poor balance decisions. This creates a bottleneck of who is using what and eventually some weapons are so underused that they are useless and only picked up for vanity reasons .

Edited by PandahSykes
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, PandahSykes said:

Armor values need to be decreased , like BAD . This isn't world of Warcraft with item levels for fucks sake , this is a first person shooter , we shouldn't be having all these arcadey elements in the game . 

 

Some weapons that are ABSOLUTELY USELESS when the opponent has armor :

revolver; takes more than 7 shots in the chest with lvl 1 armor, with an incredibly slow reload and no attachments this weapon is garbage and needs a buff .

crossbow ; you'll never find one and when you do you'll never make a kill unless you get a perfect headshot on a lvl 1 or less helmet

 

p92; incredibly fast but incredibly weak , 1911 is better in every way , there's NO reason to pick up this pistol as it is too weak against anyone in armor .

 

pump action shotgun : five shots to someone's chest while wearing lvl 2 chest rig won't kill them or even down them , also the range is a lot less than an actual shotgun can perform .

After all this has been said (and I'm sure plenty of you agree unless youre just trying to defend broken mechanics due to loving the meta) then I Think we can all agree that either some weapons like those mentioned above need more damage while shooting chest area or the freaking damage values of these ridiculous world of Warcraft items need to be reduced . I don't like playing RPG games when I'm supposed to be playing a first person shooter with hints of realism , make people die faster or make the guns stronger devs please or else this game will devolve into a bunch of meta gaming of getting the best armor and gear crunching  while you lay down and wait for people to reveal themselves (stupid!).

See.. I feel like this kind of stuff just has to be some sort of inconsistency. Like your example with the pump shotgun.. I've landed decently ranged one shot kills on people with level 2 armor and full health.

Also, I don't think shotguns ranges should be increased to IRL type ranges. It's a game and if you make shotguns have more range than they do now, they'll be OP as fuck.

Edited by Harry_Whodini

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